Impostures Syndrome and Black Ambition: DEI, Racial Capitalism, and the History of Policing in the US + Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Women of Ambition podcast. I'm your host, Alyssa Calder Hume, and today we have Whitney Knox Lee. Whitney is a civil rights attorney, an equity and inclusion consultant, a mother and wife, and the host of the Empatrix podcast. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Yes. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Thank you so much for being here, Whitney. Tell us a little bit about your podcast, because I think that encompasses a lot of these, uh, these different roles that 

you fulfill and passionately.

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: It really, yeah. It does. So, um, Impostrix podcast, we are going to be affirming the lived experiences of professionals of color who navigate imposter syndrome, white dominant culture, and racial toxicity at work. Um, and so really what that means is we're going to be diving into all that it means to be a professional of color, um, acknowledging that we are working within systems that sometimes were created to exclude us.

Um, so we're going to be talking about like, how do we identify when we're [00:01:00] working within these systems and if these systems are like actively working against us and we are being gaslit about that, then what do we do? How do we deal with those types of conversations? Um, we're going to talk about the historical context of race and racism, um, here in the United States.

And what that has to do with where we are now, um, as folks of color who are working in professions. And then we're also going to talk about like the science behind how racial traumas. affect us, affect our brains, affect our bodies, and in turn affect how we show up to the workplace, and whether or not and when we might be triggered by circumstances that are happening around us, whether that's within our work environment.

Or like for me, it's mostly, uh, external facing when I'm working. Um, so I work as a civil rights attorney in the South and I represent folks who are incarcerated. [00:02:00] And what that means on a day to day is that I'm constantly going to jails and prisons and seeing people who look like me, who are behind bars and living in cages.

Um, and so this, the science component I really want to get into to better understand for myself. When I'm leaving these jails and prisons and I'm feeling triggered and worked up and having to, um, Utilize all of these tools to kind of bring myself back to safety, um, why I'm feeling that way. Mm hmm. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: That sounds, I think that's so important that like, it sounds like you're talking about like embodiment, like mindfulness and being aware.

And I would venture to say that no HR in America is set up to help people understand those. Pieces of themselves. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: No. And somebody recently asked me, we were talking about like the DEI profession. So diversity, equity, and inclusion. Sometimes there's a B at the end, which means belonging and [00:03:00] why that's important.

And this was some, this was coming from a black woman who owned her own law firm. Um, and so she was asking really as an employer, like, why is this important? Why do we need this? Because these days, like. People aren't showing up to work and just being like overtly racist. And, you know, to answer that question, it's really about creating a community or a space within the workplace where we can feel like we belong, where we're seen and where it's psychologically safe for us to show up.

And so if I am experiencing being triggered because of the work that I do, feeling safe. To talk about that, to raise that, um, and then having systems in play within our workplace that can support me in that, you know, it's, it's part of. The, the reason or the, the need for D E I B. Do you 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: [00:04:00] see, I I've heard a lot of different things about diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging, um, and we'll get to ambition.

I always get off track, but I really want to ask you, um, as you know, per the normal way it goes in America. A lot of the times, um, there's a lot of performativity, uh, within the workplace. Um, D I, um. Groups being formed within companies and not really being informed or not being led by the correct people or not being educated Do you are you seeing that trend and is this some is this a another thing?

We need to abandon and start over with or is it something we can work with do you think 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: I definitely think we can work? with it because Often what I see, so I work in the nonprofit world, um, and it may be different in the corporate world where theoretically there's more money. But what I see is often there are these like voluntary committees, like diversity committees, um, who are [00:05:00] tasked with doing this work.

And oftentimes these committees are made of people of color. Who have other whole jobs within the organization and who are taking on this really emotion heavy, um, labor of trying to help this organization do whatever it is that the organization wants to do, whether that's be more inclusive, hire, um, from more diverse communities.

Um, or, you know, whatever, whatever the goals are. And so I think it's a start, it's a start that people are talking about diversity or about equity or about inclusion. But I'd say two things. One, that these types of, um, movements within organizations need to be supported by power. Um, they need to be deputized.

You know, they need to have resources to [00:06:00] actually be able to follow through with whatever the initiatives are that they're tasked with, I don't know, doing. Um, but also it needs to be supported by by the leadership. And so like they it needs money behind it. It needs recognition behind it. It needs support.

So when I say support, I mean, like, I, I think executives We need to be lifting up the efforts of the DEI community or the DEI committee, attending the events, making things mandatory, um, you know, putting, walking the walk. We can't just say, okay, we're going to have a DEI committee, give them like a whole list of things to take care of, but then not give them any money, not give them the power to actually make the decisions.

Like if you have a [00:07:00] committee and that committee makes a decision, but in order for the decision to actually be implemented within the organization, it has to go through two or three more layers of approval, then that's not actually giving that there should be no approval process. Exactly. Like that's not giving the committee the power to do anything because what's going to happen is it's going to come up against somebody, um, for approval who has not been a part of these conversations, who is not doing the work who might be removed from like.

What the actual need is, um, who may not be a person of color and not saying that all people of color on the same page about this, but like it does require some internal personal work to be on this page of how do we make our environment more inclusive and how do we make our environment psychologically safe for folks of color to come to work here?

Um, and then the last thing that I want to say about this is that. This work shouldn't [00:08:00] stop at diversity. Yeah, because it's not enough to have representation of people. And so when we talk about diversity, we're talking about quantity. We're talking about the number of people who are people of color or who are, um, gender non binary or who are LGBT or whatever, you know, the, the group.

Um, it's not enough to just to have the numbers. If those numbers don't have any power and don't have any say within the organization. Um, so if. You're working at an organization that hires 50 percent folks of color, but all of those folks of color are in. Um, roles that are underpaid, um, overworked that, you know, maybe receptionists who have a lot of the front end kind of work load, but aren't really valued the same as.

An attorney, you know, and in my [00:09:00] field, same as an attorney. So, um, then that's not, that's not inclusion. That's not equity. Um, it doesn't create an environment of belonging. All that you've done is created a diverse work environment. Yeah. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: No, I think, thank you. That's a, that's a really great answer. Is there, is there like a, a place to go to vet different companies and like, does Glassdoor have a diversity, equity, inclusion, quality control element, or is this mostly word of mouth to try and find a good workplace?

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: You know, I don't know the answer to that question. I think there may Is it indeed? It may be Glassdoor. One of these websites does have like a, where people who work there can provide feedback as to what the culture is like. And then they might say it's, you know, doing well or not doing well. Um, but honestly, you know, I think we learn this through our [00:10:00] interview process.

Um, we learn it through our engagement with the organization that we're considering applying for or the company that we're considering applying for. Like what has their impact been on the community? Are they in the community or are they just like sucking resources from the community? Um, who are they hiring when we're talking to The receptionist like what do they look like?

Yeah. Um, who are we seeing when we go into the building? Um, not just the website picture, right? Exactly 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: And it's hard with online hiring processes. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: It is it is and then asking questions It's totally okay to ask in your interview like So do you have any equity or inclusion initiatives or, you know, stuff like that, what are, what's the breakdown of, of, uh, races that work at your organization?

I mean, figure out a nicer way to say it or like a less, I don't know, blunt way, because also [00:11:00] this type of stuff, these types of questions do come with risk. Um, and the risk is they're going to decide that. You care too much. Yeah. And that you're not a good, you know, fit, quote, unquote for the company. Um, and that's fine.

Like that's when you know that you don't want to work there. Um, but if it's something where like you need income to support your family, and this is the only interview that you've gotten in three months and you really don't have the luxury or flexibility to not get this job. Um, then yeah, you may not want to ask those questions.

Yeah. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Yeah, that's tough. Okay. Thank you for that. Um, let's shift now to ambition. Uh, we were talking a little bit before we started recording about your experiences with that word and your reflections on that word. Can you tell us a little bit about what that word means to you and what your thoughts, where they've led you?

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Yeah, um, I don't think I've [00:12:00] ever thought about that word prior to preparing for this interview, um, and well, and listening to your podcast. And the reason is. Um, I don't think that being ambitious as a black woman is safe. Um, for me, it hasn't been historically being ambitious, wanting to do more than maybe what's expected of me or wanting, um, more of myself.

Uh, I don't think that that's safe, and so it's not necessarily that I am not ambitious or that folks of color are not ambitious, but we do what I do, um, consider it just a little bit differently, maybe, um, and I don't, I don't have. a name for it. Um, I know [00:13:00] that I'm somebody that is very mission based and value driven in all of the work that I do.

And I know that I'm stubborn. Um, I know that if somebody tells me that I can't do something, then I most certainly will be doing that thing. Um, but when we think about the history of black folks in America, um, it's never been safe for us to do anything other than what we've been told to do. We have never had kind of full ownership over our physical bodies.

And so doing things that are outside of what's been prescribed for us to do has. been a threat. Yeah, to white people and to the dominant culture, which is white, white dominant culture. Um, and [00:14:00] so I think culturally, um, like for me and my family, I come from a middle class black family. Um, I grew up in Seattle.

My parents. Went to college. They also got, um, advanced degrees. So I'm not like a first generation of anything, really. Everything that I've done before my everything that I've done, my parents have also done. And what I was blessed with as far as my privilege of being a middle class growing up middle class, um, is that I grew up believing that I could do whatever I wanted to do.

Um, and that to do whatever I wanted to do, it was going to take some work and some action behind it. Um, but I never, that was never kind of packaged as this idea of being ambitious. Interesting. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: So, [00:15:00] um, in our last episode, I talked to Natalie, who's a Latina woman, um, and talked a lot about how she was brought up to also believe that she could do anything she wanted, but then when she, like, really was a teenager and becoming an adult and was confronted with a lot of the xenophobia and racism things, that was surprising to her, and she's had to work a lot to overcome that, and so she was frustrated that she hadn't been prepared better for that as a child.

It sounds like you had some level of preparation and you knew a little bit more about what you were getting yourself into. Is that accurate? Yeah. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: So I do think, yes. Yeah. I think that's accurate as a black person. I don't know how to say this. The experience of black folks and Latinx folks is very different.

Obviously, you know, I mean, I'm not telling you anything new, but one of the things I just had a conversation for Impostrix podcast with someone who identifies as Mexican who grew up [00:16:00] here in the United States. And what's clear to me is that for some, uh, Latinx folks, culture, there's almost like a bubble of culture, um, that they may be living within.

For black people, for myself, I'll speak for myself only, it wasn't necessarily that. Um, our culture in my family is not very removed from white culture. We do not have. centuries of knowledge of our ancestry. So like, as far as I'm concerned, my family starts. In, you know, two or three generations ago in South Mississippi, I don't know where our family came from.

So by the time my parents came of age and had us the culture that I was raised within was this white culture and it was a very, [00:17:00] um, like I knew that I was black. I knew what black people were up against. Um, but I also knew that my parents were able to overcome what they experienced, the racism that they experienced, um, to find what they considered to be success.

And so I knew that it would be available to me, but that there were going to be challenges that I would face that white folks might not face. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Yeah, the Black parents I've spoken with talk a lot about the burden and the absolute essential nature of preparing their children for the world. Walking down the street, going to school, getting jobs, getting pulled over.

All of these things that many of us who might live in a bubble or who are part of the dominant culture just have no clue about. Um, so it sounds like survival and, and thriving with an asterisk is, is something that you were prepared to do, um, or, or set [00:18:00] up to do from your upbringing. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Um, yeah, I would say to some extent, I mean, I do, we're going to get into this, but you know, when thinking about imposter syndrome, I think part of the reason why I experience imposter syndrome and this feeling of not belonging or of being a fake or intellectual phony is because although I knew a little bit of what to expect.

I still I look different than the people that I'm interacting with on a daily basis who have power like the ones that aren't behind bars. Yeah. Um, but also I don't have the, um, family history within the institutions that I think that some of. My white colleagues and counterparts have so I don't have that very kind of ingrained culture of privilege that [00:19:00] a lot of a lot of people.

Yeah, right, grow up with. Yeah. And so I think to some extent like that still is still surprising to me that I'm still dealing with imposter syndrome when I'm 10 years. into lawyering. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Okay. So, so from, from the lawyer's perspective, you say you work in these prisons. Um, are you able to speak a little bit about the history of policing and the jailing system?

And, you know, we're talking about where belonging and imposter syndrome, like a lot of those institutions were established to capture, recapture enslaved people to make sure that they were staying where they are. Like that is the system that was really built for. Black people that the lawyer world being behind the desk rather than behind the bars like no wonder there's imposter syndrome Because it's literally not Structured for you.

Can you do you have more to add to that or I don't know 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Yes, I mean that's the perfect example, right? I mean this is this is like the [00:20:00] conflict that I live with like this is the purpose for imposter X podcast because I It's bizarre. It's a bizarre reality to be for me, for me to be someone that literally all it took was a little bit of luck and like not getting caught doing something that somebody else thought.

Might be illegal. Otherwise I could be on the other side of those bars, you know, it's, it's that easy. And so to, to your question about like the history of policing, I mean, you're totally right. So our, um, legal system and our policing system is all based on the recapture. Of enslaved persons, as you said, um, it was never meant to provide safety for black folks.[00:21:00] 

It was never meant to be fair for black folks. Um, 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: it was about protecting white property, right? Whether that's human people or, you know, shipping things down at the docks, right? 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: And that's. You know, our constitution and the, our, our constitutional rights. The right to due process, the right to equal protection under the law, all of these things were never meant for black people.

And it took going to court to enforce these rights, to get recognition. And not just black people, it wasn't meant for anybody other than white Europeans. You know, because through the years, there have also been Supreme Court cases where Japanese people are having to establish their citizenship or their right to be here.

Um, of course, Native Americans still, you know, are [00:22:00] not afforded all of the rights that 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Others are, um, people that live in a category. They are a, what do they call them? A legal, a legal group organization. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, people that live in our territories, Puerto Ricans don't have the same rights as people that live in mainland United States.

Um, and so this system was never meant to benefit people that look like me. It was always meant to protect white. Um, and it's also this system that created what we know today as these racial categories of, you know, white, black, um, Asian, because before that, like it was just, we were living in our countries just being people.

But then in 1619 with the start of the slave trade and the [00:23:00] start, well, not the start, but the start of people coming to what's now the United States. is when white settlers had to create distance. from the dark skinned people that were getting off the boat. And they needed to do that, not only for themselves as the ruling class, but for white indentured servants as well.

They needed to create like the upper class, the middle class, who are like the overseers, the slave overseers. And then the lower class, the people that weren't people, you know, the people that counted for Three fifths of a vote, you know, um, and so it's all of this history and context that I think is really important for me, um, when I'm thinking about lawyering and how I'm showing up, um, because many times it really does feel as though I am an agent of this system that was designed to keep me subservient.

Um, and so when we're [00:24:00] talking about ambition, I mean, everything I do is ambitious because everything that I do outside of I don't know, get welfare. I don't know, whatever people, whatever the, the dominant culture sees as my place as a black woman, whatever I do is something above and beyond what's been intended for me.

And so, um, like for me, that's just living. That's just like life and showing up to work today, um, or showing up to my family today. Um, and it does, as I said, it comes with risk. It's not safe. I don't work. In psychologically safe environments. A lot of the time. Um, my like workplace where I go to do work is fine, but like everywhere else isn't going into courthouses.

That's not safe. It's triggering for me. Um, I'm not often. I'm having to prove that I'm an attorney where other people aren't having to prove that their [00:25:00] attorney. I have to dress more professionally than my counterparts. I mean, I can't tell you how many times I I've shown up to court in a suit, which I feel like is appropriate, but there's a white man who's shown up and like wrinkled khakis and a sport jacket.

Um, I'm not a part of the club of people that so when you go into courtrooms and if you're there a little bit early, you'll often see that there are attorneys that have like secluded themselves. Um, away from all of us common feet people, um, and they're like having chats, they're bantering and sometimes the judge might be there with them.

Um, the bailiffs might be there with them and they're just kind of chilling. Like sometimes in South Georgia, this happens, um, behind closed doors in the hallways, um, leading up to the judge's chambers. Sometimes it happens in the courtroom, but like, I'm not a part of that club. Um, and [00:26:00] part of it is that I I'm a nonprofit attorney.

The part of it is that I'm a black woman. And like, if I step into that circle, then the whole mood and tone of that circle changes.

So you had asked another question, I think about like. I'm not sure. I think I forgot the second part of that question. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: No, we were just talking about uh, imposter syndrome and feeling of belonging or not and how the systems like literally aren't built for certain people. And so no wonder when we step out of our prescribed roles we're feeling that imposter syndrome because it's not like, it's not a personal insecurity, it's like literally This wasn't meant for you.

You were never supposed to be here and yet you are here. And so it sounds like a lot of the work that you're doing is how do we survive and thrive in those spaces and take [00:27:00] care, take care of yourself and like be aware? And it's just so compounded by race. And by, by racial disenfranchisement and like histories and, and even like you're saying like family histories, like your own personal location of like who you are and how you got here.

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Yeah, that's right. Because I will say to that in some of our, in some communities of color. Um, the more successful, um, according to the dominant culture, the more successful you are, the further away you are from your culture of origin. Um, and you are kind of considered, um, an outsider or like in the black community, you'll be considered maybe like an uncle Tom or somebody that's a sellout.

Um, and so there's also, you know, this pressure from within some of our communities that if we are [00:28:00] being, I don't know, successful, if we earned a seat at the table, then, um, you know, we're, we're somehow selling out and, and, you know, sometimes, not all the time, because obviously there's plenty of times where we are successful and our communities are proud of us.

Um, and I think both of those can happen. It's not either and. Yeah, but it's just 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: so much more complicated. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Right, exactly. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: So my, my classic example is like of a white guy that's being introduced and it's like, oh, he's very ambitious. Everyone's like, right on. And if it's a woman, it's like, what does that mean?

And I can see how for a person who's, who's not white, then there's even more of that compounding, like, Suspicion or like concern or like it really is that like crossing that line into not following the socially prescribed role and then you're being seen as deviant like that's the sociological word is like, and it's not just, you know, someone who's [00:29:00] breaking a law needs to be thrown in prison, but like you cross that line into social deviance and people are very suspicious.

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: All of a sudden, right, right and power because you know one of the. Characteristics. So, um, Dr. Tima Okun is the person who's come up with these characteristics of white dominant culture or white supremacist culture. The terms are kind of used interchangeably. Um, and she talks about white dominant culture as this culture where Everything around us is taking on and adopting the value of the white middle class.

Um, and so it shapes our institutions, it shapes our media, and it shapes the way that we see each other. And that includes whether we see somebody as good or bad, dangerous or not dangerous, or to your point, ambitious or not ambitious. Um, and so for folks of color, ambition is like a tightrope that you have to [00:30:00] walk, because the moment that You are perceived as a threat to power.

Um, the moment You are not, you know, you're not useful anymore. And whether that's, um, somebody who's trying to get a job somewhere and maybe they're the person that holds the position that supervisory to them, um, feels as though they're. out of line for asking questions. Um, I know we all have heard of situations where like a white man basically can get away with some things that a woman can't.

Um, and you know, for folks of color, it's even more that like a white man or a white woman can get away with something that a person of color, um, could not because the moment that we ask these questions, then it becomes, you know, people assign a tone to our voice. Thanks. Or, um, attitude, right. Aggression.

Yeah. Whereas, you know, for white [00:31:00] folks. That same tone is not assigned. It's thought, like you said, of like a positive quality of, um, being ambitious or being curious or asking the next white question, right question, or, um, you know, it's just framed differently and we, in our society. Um, then this society that, you know, survives on, on capitalism, there's only so much power.

And so we have this scarcity mindset. And that's one of these characteristics of white supremacist culture that Dr. Akun talks about is that there's not enough power to go around. And so people who have power have to hoard power and have to keep power. And people who don't have power, we have to keep them there.

Because the alternative to this, like, imbalance is that everybody has power. And if everybody has power, then what does power really mean? Um, and so if we [00:32:00] want to keep this system where we have rich people, um, where we have, uh, people that I don't know are better off or are good, then we also have people who are bad and people who are poor and people who are less than.

Um, and people are really tied to that, that system. Um, that's the system that our country was founded on. That's the system that's still in play. And, you know, I think what's really important is that capitalism, uh, I believe can't be separated from racialization and this idea of like racial. Um, capitalism where the value, um, so it's a process of deriving social and economic value from the racial identity of another person.

And this term racial capitalism, um, was coined by Cedric Robinson [00:33:00] and his book, black Marxism, and it. He's talking about this idea that we can't have capitalism without having, um, exploitation of folks of color, because that's how we got our money, right? That's how we got our power in the United States is through exploiting folks of color.

Um, and whether it was their labor or their physical person or their minds or their entertainment, the way that we sing, the way that we dance. Um, and we live in this world where the things that can be exploited from folks of color will be and all of the, you know, struggles or the like real life human issues that folks of color experience, just like white people, um, [00:34:00] is now made just an issue of folks of color.

So like poverty, um, criminality. You know, and people use this, the fact that there's a, um, disparate impact that our criminal legal system has a disparate impact on folks of color. And they just say, well, that's because folks of color have a higher, I don't know, what is the word? They, they're more likely to commit crime.

Like, that's not true. There's nothing about us that makes that true. Um, so yeah, I think I got a little bit off, off point, but I just really wanted to talk about just this idea of racial capitalism. Oh, yeah. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: I think it's really important and like what you're saying, like, in order for someone to be good or on the right track, it means that other people have to be off of it.

And that's like one of these like binary thought processes and that's, you know, that's part of how the racialized system was established was like, [00:35:00] this is what is good and that is what is other. And so there's always that like foil that has to be there in order for the structure to function. And then, yeah, if everyone has power, if there's no foil, then.

There is no power and everyone is, you know, no one can control other people. Like it's, it's just so fundamentally there. And, and I think what you're saying about ambition is how that, like being ambitious is putting yourself at risk always. Like that frames it so night, like, so not nicely, this isn't nice.

Um, it frames it so accurately. Because you are threatening the system, and you know, we feel those in, you know, there's microaggressions, there's those little tiny interactions that happen. It's so interesting, because it's not like there's some big clash all the time. I mean, there are big clashes, but this is happening in these tiny, tiny moments throughout all of our lives, all the [00:36:00] time.

It's like being reified, and like the The social response to being seen as that, like deviating from that path, that, that's like, um, in sociology, we call it enemy. Like it's, um, social punishment. I'm missing the exact word, but like, like people are just trying to get you back into your space constantly.

And so if you're stretching beyond what is socially expected, you are putting yourself in greater harm and greater risk constantly, but also. People of color have to do that in order to survive because the system is not set up to support them. And so you are in this, I don't want to say no win situation, because I think there's, there are other pathways out there, but that's the reality if you're gonna be in the capitalism of the United States at this point in history.

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Yeah, it just [00:37:00] takes a lot of energy. Yeah. I mean it's very It's an exhausting thing because it does need to be purposeful. Like if we're going to go against like not even capitalism, I don't even have to like, I'm not even saying, you know, whatever, whatever your beliefs are about capitalism is fine. But if we're going to, um, create environments where it's safe for everybody to be ambitious.

Um, then that takes effort and like affirmative action it takes when you're seeing something happen where maybe a person of color is being, um, identified as somebody who's aggressive or you know, you're in a boardroom and there's hiring decisions being made or promotion decisions being made and a person of color is getting passed up because they work too hard.

You know, our role there as people, you know, if you have privilege is [00:38:00] to speak up and question it and not even say, Oh, you're wrong. That's racist. That's bad. But just to say, Can you tell me more about that? Can you like, I'm trying to follow your thought process. Can you just help me figure out where you're going?

And by questioning in that way, and really trying to get the person to identify What their real concern is, you know, you might encourage them to like, say these words out loud so that then they're thinking to themselves, okay, maybe that's not, that doesn't actually sound. That didn't come out how I meant it, you know, when it did, but like, it just doesn't sound very good coming out and so, but allowing that person like engaging that person in conversation may help them to figure out like, what is it that they're looking for?

And how can we like one is the thing that they're looking for the thing that actually needs to happen. And if so, like, how can we get there in a way that's more equitable, instead of, you know, putting [00:39:00] these labels on people based on stereotypes based on white fear of losing power, and I'm not wanting to share that power.

Yeah. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Thank you. Um, with all this in mind, is there a space that can be created or is existing or that you've experienced where black ambition, people of color's ambition is safe within certain constraints or certain communities or places? Like, are you, do you, is there a safe place being built? 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: I think there are safe places for me.

I have a sister circle. Um, you know, bringing it way back down to like the personal level, I have a community of people around me and we celebrate each other. We celebrate each other's accomplishments and we encourage each other to do the next thing if that's what they want to do, whatever that next thing be, [00:40:00] or sorry, whatever that next thing is.

Um, I think in organizations like this is a role that the diversity, equity, inclusion, belonging work can can fill is creating a space where black ambition is safe. Um, but I think like. On the larger scale. No, I mean, we, we had a black president and you've seen what that's resulted in. I mean, like, there's no, we were able to elect somebody into office that holds, you know, the most powerful position in the world.

And the backlash. We're still living that we will be living the backlash of that. Um, you know, probably throughout our lifetime. And so I don't know. I don't think that black ambition is safe, like on a larger scale. Um, [00:41:00] but I do think that there are communities where it is safe. Um, one of the first places that I found real kind of.

I guess I just felt seen was an Essence magazine, um, reading through Essence magazine and reading about people like myself. Like, I don't know. I just felt for a couple of years I had a subscription before, um, COVID and I don't know, I just felt empowered and like I was seen when I was reading through that.

Um, and so that's just like, A small example of a, of a space of a community. Um, but I, I mean, we're living in this racialized capitalistic system. So while we have that, no, I don't think that it black ambition is safe. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: How do you mind speaking a little bit to maybe how that's affecting your parenting? I mean, you said you're a mother.

Oh, I know. It's like [00:42:00] a whole, a whole thing. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Yeah, I'm terrified. So everything about being a black woman. Um, can be terrifying and starting with pregnancy and maternal health. Um, and I, I live in Georgia, Georgia has one of the highest rates of black female, um, mortality for people who are pregnant. Um, we also have high rates of black infant deaths.

Um, after birth for no reason, I mean, like not, I shouldn't say for no reason because of racism, you know, and medical racism, uh, and, and so, you know, I've had really traumatic births, um, that I still am like finding myself triggered. Now and then when I'm, when I'm speaking to people, um, [00:43:00] and when, and I, and so I also have an autistic son, um, and he's three years old now and he's black.

Alyssa Calder Hulme: The whole neurodivergent space is just full of white supremacy, like the, to the craziest degree, IQ testing, support systems, schooling systems. It's, oh my gosh, 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: huge. Absolutely. And so that's a thing. And one of the, like. One of the decisions that we had to make last year was whether or not to, um, enroll our son in ABA therapy, applied behavioral, what is it, analysis or something?

I don't know. Um, there's all this controversy about ABA therapy. Um, I don't have a position on this controversy. All I know is that I need my son to be As little of a threat to white people as possible and that I saw and my husband saw ABA therapy as a way to help make that happen because he's already a threat.

Um, so I have a [00:44:00] neurotypical son and a neurodivergent son and they're already threats because they're little black boys. Um, but if my autistic son. Is not showing up, um, as people are expecting him to, if he is being too quiet, if he's being too loud, if he has explosive tantrums, if he. I don't know looks if he stares off into space if he is not functioning how his teachers expect him to function or how the police expect him to function or any random person, then he's at risk.

Yeah, he's at more risk than him. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Other people's children than white anyone, any other child, probably 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: exactly. And so, you know, for us, ABA therapy meant a way to help Royce, our son, um, [00:45:00] I don't want to say conform or assimilate, but how to manage his behavior and how to learn social skills so that. He can basically show up more of how people are expecting, you know, I mean, and that's just the fact of the matter, whether or not I think it should be the case that he should have to do that.

All of that stuff doesn't matter because it is what it is. Um, and so to your question about like parenting and racial capitalism and black boys and all of that, like, it's terrifying. It's terrifying. There's no, there's nothing. Like there's nothing to make that sentence better. It's just terrifying. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Um, have you heard of, um, Trina Green Brown Parenting for Liberation?

It's a book. No, I haven't. Um, so I was able to listen to a, a class that she gave, she's also a Black mother, um, [00:46:00] talking about racial trauma, raising children, and Working through her own stuff and trying to let her kids teach them survival skills, but also let them have like liberation and joy. And, um, that's a nonprofit in Southern California, um, that I think is just wonderful, but I I'm reading that book right now.

And it's talks a lot about that. Um, and it's geared towards black parents. That's who it's for. Um, but I've been learning a lot through, through her stories there. And yeah, it's a lot, it's a lot. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: It is. There's a lot that goes into. To black parenting because our parents were raised by parents who had children like disappearing with no explanation.

I mean like, of course we still have that happening, but We, we were just raised by parents whose parents grew up [00:47:00] in the thick of it, like pre-Civil rights movement. And so what that means is that what our parents learned from their parents and have passed on to us are these ideas of like how survival, these ideas of survival.

And that looks like. Staying in line like staying in our place, not acting out. And so, you know, in the legal profession, we see sometimes, um, families who are caught in, um, juvenile court proceedings because they discipline their Children in public. And for black families that might mean spanking, that might mean hitting people with a switch.

Um, and while that's not something that I want to do, and frankly, most of the parents that I know that are my age, like, don't want to hit our kids. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: I don't think anyone wants to, but if you think it's going to keep them alive, like, just do it. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Right, exactly. And that's, that's the thing. It's like, so, I [00:48:00] love, you know, hearing about Parenting for Liberation because What I've learned, um, is that in order to keep our kids alive, we need to discipline them in a way to basically scare them from doing anything out of line.

And that can mean using violence. My own parents did not, um, use violence, but my grandparents did use violence on us and then on, you know, on my parents. And so we're also left with like this, okay, so how do we, how do we navigate discipline if we don't want to like hit our children? Um. And so, yeah, I've got a lot to learn in that, in that respect, because I'm a cry it out person.

I was like, I can't, and I'm somebody that, um, live with postpartum depression and postpartum anxiety in addition to this trauma. And so like really early on, it was clear to me that like, I just can't handle you. Like I want to hit you. So let me walk away and you go and [00:49:00] cry. Yeah. Um, because I can't do this.

So my children are like the timeout kids and they'll go to your room and think about it, kids and like, leave mommy alone kids. Um, because like, I, you know, I have a lot to learn in that area for sure. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: It sounds like a lot of healing and creation and then there's the generational trauma, but then there's also generational healing.

And I mean, I see that to agree with my kids or I'm just like passing it on. Like you'll do better than me. And I will do everything I can to set you up for a better life and I'm sorry, I'm doing my best. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Yeah. Yeah. And just like letting our kids be has really been my husband and I both struggle with that because letting them be means that they might not be safe.

Um, and balancing those, those two things. It's hard. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Yeah. I have, I have neurodivergent children as [00:50:00] well. And it compounds. My concerns for them. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Did you guys, um, utilize ABA? 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: No, we don't have autistic children. Um, Okay, but I have a lot of friends that do we have a lot of other things that so we have ADHD. We have dyslexia we have dysgraphia, dyscalculia, anxiety, depression, I've wondered about autism, but we've never had that diagnosis so far, um, and I, and I originally was just so grateful to have an idea of what was going on and then unpacking, uh, how that diagnosis process comes across and how it's, um, implemented.

And I was homeschooling my children at the time and the, the doctor's response to me as a homeschooling mother was just that it was me and that I was doing a bad job and just like. Wow. There's a lot of sexism in Utah, like it's a thing, but, and then going through the school [00:51:00] process and getting support and, and therapies and all kinds of things, um, it's heavy.

It's a lot. And it's really under misunderstood. Certain things are like, I think ADHD is getting a little bit more understood, at least for white kids, white boys. Yeah. Um, but. I don't know. I think it's, I think it's an our generational thing that we're trying to heal and get better. At least those are the people I'm choosing to surround myself with.

And it means a lot of parenting of our generation are doing it completely differently from the way we were raised. That's a lot of work. And it's a lot of unpacking. A lot of healing work. It is! 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: And like, I'm really curious, like, I look forward to hearing about what this is all going to look like when you go back to school.

Because, like I'm first of all, I'm not like stay at home mom homeschool mom material like that is not me. I can't do it. I don't want to do it. They drive me crazy. [00:52:00] Um, but adding on this component of like neuro divergence and all that that means. Is a clusterfuck. I mean, it's like, absolutely expensive. Oh my gosh.

So expensive. So, so, so expensive. Um, there's so much logistics that go into it. There's so much. I mean, like getting people to where they need to be, um, getting the, the therapies. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: And just trying to like learn your child and they're all different. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: They're like, all the children are different, which is like a trip to me still that like Everett is not the same as Royce and Royce is not the same as Everett.

Um, yeah, it's, it's a lot. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Yeah. So, so we had to reschedule this a couple times because of me and I'm sorry. Um, but part of what's happening right now is we have a really hard time with transitions. lot [00:53:00] of people with autism do. Like we're all neurodivergent over here. It's really stressful. It's really hard.

We're, we're getting our house ready to rent. We're finishing our basement right now and we're trying to do a lot of it ourselves. And then my kids just ended school. So we're starting summer. Um, I just ended my schooling. So I'm transitioning from being full time school to now full time stay at home mom again, which.

is really hard for me because I, I did homeschool for four years and it was wonderful. And I was very done with it when I was done and, and basically like been working full time being in school and now I'm at home again. And then we're, you know, prepping to not only move, but to move across the country and going from rural Utah to suburban Chicago, uh, is going to be a drastic change.

And yeah, we're leaving our doctors and our therapists and our friends and our support networks and our community here in. All of those changes are really big and like the kids that's that's the one Thing that has been the hardest with this move and with [00:54:00] me making my choice of what I want to do with my life and where I want to go to school and None of the other things really matter to me It's my kids that matter the most and it's been really challenging to make this decision I think it will be the best one in the end.

Um, but yeah, it's it's a hard thing to manage all of that and I mean, I, I've been the primary caretaker of our children for their whole lives, 12 years now. And so I'm very aware of how this stuff affects them and the mental load and all that. So, uh, yeah, we'll see how, how much time I'll have to actually share and peel back all the layers here and talk about it.

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Yeah. I mean, it's. Yeah, but you guys can do it. And, and kids are resilient. Well, I feel like there's so much Royce, my autistic child. I just feel like it's so much more resilient than I ever was. Um, because he, and, and part of it's his [00:55:00] age is that he can learn. Yeah, he can. Adjust if he, if he needs to, but he also is so stubborn and just hold on to his himself, which is amazing.

Um, he lets, you know, if he's not pleased, 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: such a gift and such a challenge 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: it is. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Yeah. I think it'll be really good for our whole family, but especially my children to be in a more diverse environment. Um, we're homogenous place right now and. There's going to be a lot of really wonderful, wonderful, good things for them to explore and to learn and to create friendships and communities and, um, and bonds with other people that are, that look different from them, that have different beliefs, that, you know, all of those, those things that we've been talking about, that's something I really value.

So it's more than just. It'll be a blessing to them. It's just harder to see that on this side of things, you know? 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Yeah. Yeah. So how old is your oldest 12? 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: She will be 12 in September. Yeah. So they're still all [00:56:00] elementary school. They'll be close by. We're going to, you know, be able to walk everywhere we need to go, which is really awesome.

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: And it'll, it's just, it's a big change from what we're used to. It is. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Okay. Well, so much for being on the podcast. We've covered so much ground, Whitney. Thank you. Um, I really appreciate you. Explaining this and talking through it and delving into, to race and experience your experience as a black woman, I know that's work and effort and labor, and, um, I really appreciate it.

I know our listeners do as well. And I know there are many listeners out there who are going to feel really seen because of what you said. Um, yeah, it's making me rethink the way that I approach that word and experiences and just really. Taking a step back and making sure I see more of the big picture and making sure that when I talk to people, I have space for for all of their responses and [00:57:00] experiences.

So, so thank you for opening up and sharing with us today. I really appreciate it. 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Yeah, thank you. Thank you for having me. It's been a, it's been a pleasure. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: I always love to talk to other podcasters. It's so much fun. Yeah. To hear where they're coming from and what their passions are because we like to talk and we have passions.

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: Yes. Absolutely. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Um, yeah. And so people, so the name of the podcast is Impostrix podcast and, um, we are on Spotify and Apple and Amazon. And people can find us at www. impostrixpodcast. com. And then on Instagram at Impostrix Podcasts are the two main, main places. Awesome. 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: Okay.

Anything else you want to share with us before we close? No, 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: I just I hope that, um, you know, these I want to say that these conversations are hard like conversations about race and understanding each other and where we're coming from and how our race impacts like our perspective on even things like ambition, um, can be [00:58:00] difficult to have and I encourage folks to, um, continue to try and push their boundaries around, um, the conversation, um, when it includes race, um, and to To To come.

Somebody recently told me not to even assume the best, but just assume nothing like when you're having difficult conversations, whether or not it's about race or whether somebody is giving you critical feedback, um, assume nothing so that you can just hear the words. Um, and, and, you know, use that as a starting point.

So that's my, yeah, that's my challenge for folks today is we're thinking about, like we talked about race, we talked about DEI work, we talked about racial capitalism and colonialism, and, um, these are topics that. Folks go through their, you know, normal day, week, month without talking about or thinking about.

Um, so to the extent that it's uncomfortable, I encourage people to lean into that. Yeah. Thank 

Alyssa Calder Hulme: you. I appreciate that. That's [00:59:00] our ambitious challenge. Stretch yourself. Stretch yourself into discomfort, especially if you are a white privileged person, especially. Awesome. Okay. Thank you so much, Whitney. I really, really 

Whitney Knox Lee, Esq.: appreciate it.

Thank you.